NMNDosage 1g is enough?

MrDaniel123
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:43 pm

Dosage 1g is enough?

Post by MrDaniel123 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:17 am

Hello,

I hope that you are all well.

I’ve been doing some reading and went back to the original nmn mice article in cell.

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S009 ... 18)30152-1

“To restore NAD+ levels, we administered NMN to 18-month-old mice via drinking water for 2 months at 400 mg/kg/day”

Please correct my maths if it is wrong.

400mg = 0.4g

At 90 kg, that would be 90 * 0.4 = 36g/day !?!?

Many other articles on this forum talk about ranges of 0.5 - 1g of nmn per day. Which is about 0.01g/kg/day a factor of 40x smaller.

Aside from the prohibitive cost issues as a 100g bag of nmn would last only 3 days.

How can we be sure that NMN dosage is even in a therapeutic range?

David Sinclairs regimen is 1g/day. Are we just mimicking him or is it possible to show this dosage is worth it?

Here, the authors mention that the water is changed twice a week? I am unclear if this affects the above maths.

“In all cases, otherwise indicated, animals were administered NMN (400 mg/kg/day), NaHS (20 mg/kg/day) and/or GYY4137 (20 mg/kg/day) (Rose et al., 2015) via drinking water at pH 7.2. NMN stock was changed twice per week”

Would love to hear some thoughts on this.


Drdavid
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Re: Dosage 1g is enough?

Post by Drdavid » Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:44 pm

Welcome to the group. I am a big believer in a personalized program. Giving just a dosage that all should take is a recipe for disaster. Each person has to determine what amount is best for them and what helps them achieve their goals. My recommendation is to start slow and build up to a point that works for you.
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jocko6889
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Re: Dosage 1g is enough?

Post by jocko6889 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:29 pm

MrDaniel123, a common misunderstanding is that simply using weight difference between mice and humans to calculate increased dosage is a valid method. It is not. But you made other errors in your calculations as well.

In the formula you quoted, 400 mg/kg/day you assumed a mouse weighs 1 kg with dose of 400mg, but a mouse doesn't weigh anything close to 1 kilogram. It weighs on average .68 oz or .02kg. The formula was used as a reference, assuming actual weight of the mouse would be used to adjust accordingly. So your initial mouse dosage is way off.

Back to the point of using only weight to calculate the difference, though:

"It should be emphasized that the common perception of scaling of dose based on the body weight (mg/kg) alone is not the right approach. This is primarily because the biochemical, functional systems in species vary which in turn alter pharmacokinetics. Therefore, extrapolation of dose from animals to humans needs consideration of body surface area, pharmacokinetics, and physiological time to increase clinical trial safety."

"- Larger animals have lower metabolic rates
- Physiological process of larger animals is slower
- Larger animals required smaller drug dose on weight basis"

Various mathematical formulas are used to calculate human dosage from mouse studies, all requiring pretty good math skills. You can see examples in the research article below but the point is you can't just use mouse weight as a guide.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4804402/
Taking:
NMN - 1 gram
LSG Resveratrol/Curcumin
Methyl Folate - 1,000mcg
Methyl B12 - 5,000mcg
PQQ - 20mg
Vitamin D3 & K2 - (D3 25mcg, K2 45mcg)
Creatine Monohydrate - 800mg
NAC - 600mg
Glycine - 1,000mg
Acetyl L-Carnitine - 500mg
CoQ10 - 100mg
MrDaniel123
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:43 pm

Re: Dosage 1g is enough?

Post by MrDaniel123 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:05 pm

Awesome. Thank you for the insight and corrections. That was a pretty stupid mistake!

Turns out you can get some pretty big rats! But i doubt the mice in those studies were of this size! :D

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160407 ... small-dogs

My personal program can be found on this earlier post. I'm totally on board with this idea, but just want to clarify some points.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1923&p=6827#p6827

"Larger animals required smaller drug dose on weight basis" This statement i can get behind and is a great point that i will look into.

Once again, thank you for your input.
Newage
Posts: 894
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:22 pm

Re: Dosage 1g is enough?

Post by Newage » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:22 pm

Hi Mrdaniel123.
In comparison to the mouse dosage, the human suggested intake would be between 500mg to 1000mg per day of NMN depending on the individual and their goals..That allows for a variation above 500mg for different individuals also taking into account how well the molecule is assimilated. :shock:
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AlbertY
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Location: Boston, MA

Re: Dosage 1g is enough?

Post by AlbertY » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:16 pm

MrDaniel123 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:17 am
Hello,

I hope that you are all well.

I’ve been doing some reading and went back to the original nmn mice article in cell.

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S009 ... 18)30152-1

“To restore NAD+ levels, we administered NMN to 18-month-old mice via drinking water for 2 months at 400 mg/kg/day”

Please correct my maths if it is wrong.

400mg = 0.4g

At 90 kg, that would be 90 * 0.4 = 36g/day !?!?

Many other articles on this forum talk about ranges of 0.5 - 1g of nmn per day. Which is about 0.01g/kg/day a factor of 40x smaller.

Aside from the prohibitive cost issues as a 100g bag of nmn would last only 3 days.

How can we be sure that NMN dosage is even in a therapeutic range?

David Sinclairs regimen is 1g/day. Are we just mimicking him or is it possible to show this dosage is worth it?

Here, the authors mention that the water is changed twice a week? I am unclear if this affects the above maths.

“In all cases, otherwise indicated, animals were administered NMN (400 mg/kg/day), NaHS (20 mg/kg/day) and/or GYY4137 (20 mg/kg/day) (Rose et al., 2015) via drinking water at pH 7.2. NMN stock was changed twice per week”

Would love to hear some thoughts on this.
To translate dose from mice to human, the rule of thumb would be divide it by 12. so it would be 3g/day for people at 90 kg. I'd say it is close enough to 1g, and also need to consider scientists tend to use higher dose in experiment to yield result significant enough.
Ph.D. student at Harvard Medical School, doing research on aging
drkris69
Posts: 620
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:41 pm

Re: Dosage 1g is enough?

Post by drkris69 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:26 pm

MrDaniel123 welcome and all great advice here on the forum. Feel free to ask any and all questions you may have.
zmm
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Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:21 am

Re: Dosage 1g is enough?

Post by zmm » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:36 am

keep in mind as well, that with the mice it was ingested in their water, and not directly into the blood stream. I am not sure what this would mean when taking it sublingual.

Note that Sinclair takes his in a pill form, and says that he has no idea if sublingual is better/worse or if the dose should then be different
Newage
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Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:22 pm

Re: Dosage 1g is enough?

Post by Newage » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:45 pm

zmm wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:36 am
keep in mind as well, that with the mice it was ingested in their water, and not directly into the blood stream. I am not sure what this would mean when taking it sublingual.

Note that Sinclair takes his in a pill form, and says that he has no idea if sublingual is better/worse or if the dose should then be different
My personal belief is that the longer (within reason) that the Sublingual tablet is held under the tongue or in the mouth the more that is directly absorbed and then the excess is eventually swallowed into the stomach anyway.
NewLifeScience
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Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:17 pm

Re: Dosage 1g is enough?

Post by NewLifeScience » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:53 pm

Just jumping in to add that mice, due to their size can metabolize over 10% of their body weight in a day.

https://www.in.gov/isdh/23256.htm

There is no comparing dosages with these creatures, and thank goodness or few of us could afford it.
Taking:
Liposomal Curcumin / Resveratrol
NMN 500mg
Melatonin 1mg (am)
Blueberry extract 1g
Berberine 250mg
Vitamin E tocotrienols 50 mg
Astragalus 500 mg
Methyl B12 5000 mcg 3x/week
Methyl Folate 1000 mcg 1-3/week
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